A Modest Proposal

[Bothketbog]

For all the posters who question the development and maintenance of the game, here's a thought; why don't you apply for a job at SSG? You obviously know better than the current staff as to how to fix the lag and make the appropriate avatar changes, deal with PvMP, etc. I don't think the people who are working have a lot of time to monitor complaints here. They might be busy making a whole new forum web site, I'm just spitballing here. Sure, you're free to register a complaint, but please stop second-guessing every change that hits Bullroarer/live. Be constructive, don't threaten to quit the game. We'll miss you, I'm sure. Sorry, I don't usually make this kind of post, but lately, having seen two threads regarding "Who do the devs listen to?", I'm about over it. I would think they listen to their bosses. That's not us, we are consumers. If you don't like the product, don't use it.

[istvana]

After some of the usual drama it is always good to see a modest proposal, Istvana responds Swiftly.

[choon_blaze]

I don't think proposing to players they should stop playing and their voices do not matter is a good idea for an old mmo. They are already struggling to keep players since Helm's Deep and that's a decade long downward spiral.

[TesalionLortus]

While I agree some things that really don't seem to matter as much tend to turn into melodramas sometimes, here on the forum or wherever else in the online space... I don't exactly agree with your point because the "never say anything constructive and never propose changes to the game because everything is already set in stone as the bosses told, just do the devs work for them by pointing out bugs they seem to care the most about atm and beta testing" isn't exactly a good stance for improving products. It's just basic neutral consumptionism - sure, some companies like that and even need that, but there are cases where relying on some quality feedback to keep improving is good too and devs of games aren't omnipotent either. None of us is. Say, if a company is seemingly failing in some specific areas again and again, which is argumented by constructive feedback, not just utter whining, then a company may need to realize perhaps they're failing in some areas for some specific workflow reasons (for example) and adjust. Or just, well, if its just about some simple feature, then listen to the players feedback and do something about it to come out on top.

[Bothketbog]

While I agree some things that really don't seem to matter as much tend to turn into melodramas sometimes, here on the forum or wherever else in the online space... I don't exactly agree with your point because the "never say anything constructive and never propose changes to the game because everything is already set in stone as the bosses told, just do the devs work for them by pointing out bugs they seem to care the most about atm and beta testing" isn't exactly a good stance for improving products. It's just basic neutral consumptionism - sure, some companies like that and even need that, but there are cases where relying on some quality feedback to keep improving is good too and devs of games aren't omnipotent either. None of us is. Say, if a company is seemingly failing in some specific areas again and again, which is argumented by constructive feedback, not just utter whining, then a company may need to realize perhaps they're failing in some areas for some specific workflow reasons (for example) and adjust. Or just, well, if its just about some simple feature, then listen to the players feedback and do something about it to come out on top.

Oh, we are in total agreement on that point. I think I was more annoyed by some of the headlines and demands listed in forum posts. Just asking for a little bit of good manners. Don't demand, suggest; don't threaten to quit, because you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm sorry if my original post implied otherwise.

[TesalionLortus]

I think I was more annoyed by some of the headlines and demands listed in forum posts. Just asking for a little bit of good manners. Don't demand, suggest; don't threaten to quit, because you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm sorry if my original post implied otherwise.

Still, all these things happen for a reason. May be a bit unwise for a dev to just dismiss something as feedback just because it was demanding/a bit rude (also, it may seem utterly shocking to players -and thus cause such reactions - if such a shift in "what important and what isn't" happens to be an apparent 90 degrees shift, from immersion/lore care to utter zero care in this case, so I'm more surprised at the people who say they're surprised at others reactions rather than the ones who are overly dramatic :P )

[Elmagor]

Oh, we are in total agreement on that point. I think I was more annoyed by some of the headlines and demands listed in forum posts. Just asking for a little bit of good manners. Don't demand, suggest; don't threaten to quit, because you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I'm sorry if my original post implied otherwise.

Things wasn't such loud if devs wasn't such silent. When you doing such changes for 15 year old game first thing what you can do is test them, read feedback and tell people why you doing such changes and why you doing such changes right now.

[wispsong]

Things wasn't such loud if devs wasn't such silent. When you doing such changes for 15 year old game first thing what you can do is test them, read feedback and tell people why you doing such changes and why you doing such changes right now.

And most certainly you don't want to silence people.

[Askelin]

In all fairness, people can provide earnest and helpful feedback without knowing anything about game creation. They can make suggestions based on their experience with the game.
Ultimately when it comes to gameplay such as PvMP for example, the developers pool the feedback from people who engage in that system and are able to contribute by simply sharing their experience even if they don't know how to create video games.
Another example. There's players who are skilled in high difficulty content that probably know the mechanics of a raid or class just as intimately as the developers themselves. I don't think they want idea guys working on their payroll, I think they want feedback from actual players.

As for the Avatar Update. People are giving feedback just as any other system, you may not like that feedback but they're using the forums to voice their concerns just like any other update. It isn't a gameplay change like class balance where they want feedback from people who play a certain class, but rather this affects every player in some way, and therefor the whole playerbase will feel qualified to talk about it.
They have the right to do so.

[DoRonRon]

Too often I'm inclined to believe it's more about having someone in the team "having a go" at it when the expertise has long since departed/hasn't been around since the game's inception.

[Trendafil]

Fun fact:
When I first started playing the game, I did consider throwing away all my professional training and starting all over again and study computer science to be able to apply for a job at Turbine, so awestruck was I how impressively they were converting Tolkien's imagination into a walk-in world that I badly wished to be part of the people who created this magic.
(I was realistic enough to not do it in the end, considering how small the chances were to really get that job and how uncertain if the - even then already rather old - game would still be around when I finished my training. But I DID consider it.
Fun fact two: Had I done it, I would have long finished my studies and the game is still here. And they WERE offering jobs around that time...!)

[Silmenande]

For all the posters who question the development and maintenance of the game, here's a thought; why don't you apply for a job at SSG?

SSG can't afford them?

[Plidak]

For all the posters who question the development and maintenance of the game, here's a thought; why don't you apply for a job at SSG? You obviously know better than the current staff as to how to fix the lag and make the appropriate avatar changes, deal with PvMP, etc. I don't think the people who are working have a lot of time to monitor complaints here. They might be busy making a whole new forum web site, I'm just spitballing here. Sure, you're free to register a complaint, but please stop second-guessing every change that hits Bullroarer/live. Be constructive, don't threaten to quit the game. We'll miss you, I'm sure. Sorry, I don't usually make this kind of post, but lately, having seen two threads regarding "Who do the devs listen to?", I'm about over it. I would think they listen to their bosses. That's not us, we are consumers. If you don't like the product, don't use it.

Ppl have all the right to be negative. So let them be.
Is not our job to apply to SSG.
Let me ask you. How hard is to have gm online 24/7? You need 3 ppl. Max. Been there, did that. Even in more populated game.
Even if they dont "care" to help ppl with in game problems likes, stuck, bugs, etc, they can atleast be a shield vs drama on wc, to monitor bot reports, gold sellers and ban fishing link accounts.

About threads "Who do the devs listen to?" One of them was about the in game balance changes and discussion more on private discords than on OF and i agree with this one. Entirely.
Second one was about the "awfull" human avatar changes. I dont see a problem there. All good. Lore breaking ? Who cares. I dont. New avatars look good, also it show that they put lot of work on it. Its promissing. Ye it will ruin a lot of outfits. Ye, new riding annimation cause major bugs, but im sure in week or 2 we will have fixes.
Also very happy of FINALY listen to the community and getting rid of puddles and kite mechanics. Was a time. Dont even wait for next major patch. Nerf them now. To the ground, and replace them with smth fun on next patch. You have alot of experience in DDO. Every instance mechanic feels great there. Why dont we have them in LOTRO? i cant recall how many expansion i just run or dance around sh/ts on the ground ....
FINALY one of the devs tried LOTRO /it may be the first one/ and aknowleadge the problem.
Took them years ....


Bothbog, not everyone who is bitching vs SSG hate them in real. Some times ppl have right to be bitchy. Also lots of them pay with $ and all of them pay with time, so dont blame them.
When respect need to be given, we do. But when we just get from SSG ""its my way, or the highway"" dont expect us to just stay and take it to the chin.
Ofc ppl will quit if they dont get what they deserve. We dont want more than that.
We accept the lag. Thats all. And tbh thats enough.
Rest should be tested, and also discussed with the comunity before even go to BR. And we got major changes to live server /like 25% morale + 8%/ out of the blue.
Like how this come live? With who they discuse it ? Which feedbacks they take ? Some MFKRS who play in same grp more over 10y and have good coordination, game cheesing setup /speaking of classes/ honed skills, no life, and lots of experience ? So this guy get bored, want it hard, and give feedbacks which just kill the game for rest 95% of the players. Right ....
If they demand such hard content, sure. Add a "no lifer tier" and let them rot there.
With all my respect to guys like Ghyn, but there is no neeed to try convice ppl how wront they are in every video from last week.
Respect and all, but dont think ppl are that silly. Its ofending.
Anyway, nuff runting.
Cant wait for tomorrow uptdate and all those bearded ladyes :3

[DoRonRon]

I think it would have been easier following someone leaving the Needham office and contrive to make friends with them; loads of the anniversary interviews have mentioned it being friends with another employee as being the way in. That was before Daybreak taking over though. More keen that clever too, during another stream.

Assuming an 8 hour shift it's 4 poor souls you have to assign to GM the two games minimum.